How To Grow Your Brand and Stay True To Its DNA With Catherine Heald, Co-Founder and CEO of Remote Lands
Catherine Heald is the Co-founder and CEO of Remote Lands, an ultra-luxury travel provider to destinations in Asia. Catherine is a serial entrepreneur with a background in software engineering and technology. She founded three notable software companies and had a stint in sales at Apple. Her drive to escape mediocrity and boredom led her to establish Remote Lands, turning her fervent passion for Asian travel into a profession. In addition to her business pursuits, Catherine has enjoyed extraordinary travel experiences throughout Asia, from private lunches with royalty to adventurous treks in challenging terrains.
Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn:
Catherine Heald shares why she moved to Hong Kong in 1987 with no job and $1,000 in savings
What inspired the launch of Remote Lands?
Why Catherine describes the pandemic as “hell on earth” for her brand
How Remote Lands attracts new customers
Catherine explains why it took 12 years for Remote Lands to become endorsed by travel advisors
Knowing the obstacles she had to overcome to establish her brand, what might Catherine have done differently?
Why organic growth — not expansion — is the healthiest option for Remote Lands
What you’ll learn in this episode:
For travel agency businesses, growth and expansion can occur in various ways. Is there a scenario where one is preferred, and the other is not desired?
According to Catherine Heald, whose brand specializes in luxury travel experiences to Asia, growth is always welcome, but expansion would cost her business its DNA. She wants to bring in more revenue, reach more customers, and add destinations in Asia, but not sacrifice its fundamentals by expanding services to other countries outside Asia. Growth is achieved, Catherine says, by working with travel agents and advisors from multiple continents outside the US, like Europe and South America. She has found that organic growth is better for her brand than obtaining money from outside investors.
On this episode of From Persona to Personal, Roger Hurni sits down with Catherine Heald, Co-founder and CEO of Remote Lands, to chat about effective ways to grow your brand without sacrificing what makes it successful. Catherine shares why accepting money from outside investors has proven less desirable than growing organically. She discusses the pandemic’s effect on her brand and reveals the Asian destinations that are most popular among travelers and which ones have lost their luster.
Resources mentioned in this episode:
This episode’s sponsor:
Today’s episode is brought to you by Off Madison Ave. At Off Madison Ave, we create meaningful moments of brand trust and influence how people interact and engage with brands.
There is a science behind tapping into your audiences’ desires and motivation. After all, if you’re not changing your audiences’ behaviors, you can’t truly unlock all of your brand’s potential.
The proven models and methods of Behavior Design are the strategic foundation for your brand’s success.
Episode Transcript
Intro 0:02
This is From Persona to Personal podcast. Today's episode is brought to you by Off Madison Ave. Off Madison Ave creates meaningful moments of brand trust and influences how people interact and engage with brands. The science behind their approach taps into your audience's motivations and desires. After all, if you're not changing your audience's behaviors, you can't truly unlock all of your brand's potential. Now, let's get started with the show.
Roger Hurni 0:31
Hello, everyone, I am Roger Hurni, the host of From Persona to Personal, where I get to use my expertise in consumer behavior to engage with top business leaders who are propelling their brands forward. Before I get to today's absolutely amazing guest, I wanted to let you know that this episode is brought to you by Off Madison Ave. At Off Madison Ave, we use behavioral science to create meaningful moments of brand trust, which influences how people interact and engage with companies. Our behavioral approach taps into your audience's motivation and prompts them to shift behavior. And if you're not changing your audience's behaviors, you truly can't unlock all of your brand's potential. These proven behavioral models and methods are the strategic foundation for your brand's success. Visit offmadisonave.com to learn more. Now without further ado, I am super super excited to have with me, Catherine Heald, she is the Chairman and CEO of Remote Lands. Catherine has a honestly a truly amazing background. She graduated from Columbia in 1984 with a degree in computer science and a specialty in, believe it or not, AI which evidently was definitely a thing back then, but clearly did not have the hardware or the data and that lagged and is just catching up now. Eventually, Catherine moved to Hong Kong without a job and knowing no one with a life savings of $1,000 and a couple of phone numbers. She stayed for seven years. And if you've ever heard of Rockstar Games or played Grand Theft Auto Well, she was the first president of Take Two Interactive, the parent company of Rockstar Games. It's all morphed from her first Hong Kong company. And then a little side note I thought was kind of humorous here. All that happened and yet she has never played Grand Theft Auto. Catherine, welcome to the show.
Catherine Heald 2:21
Thank you and I don't intend to ever played Grand Theft Auto.
Roger Hurni 2:27
You know, in full disclosure, I have actually never played Grand Theft Auto either. I am because I like to travel the way you like to travel. And I like the adventure part. You might not be a video game person I actually am but my video game of choices is Lara Croft. I like solving the puzzles and doing all the adventure stuff so but
Catherine Heald 2:50
that's a little more cerebral than raping and killing prostitutes and stealing cars
Roger Hurni 2:57
that are first person shooter games like none of that interests me I like I definitely like something more cerebral. Clearly you do as well. The introduction I gave cover a lot of ground but I'd like to touch on on something specific. I'm kind of curious on what was the catalyst for that trip to Hong Kong? What were you thinking and feeling at that time?
Catherine Heald 3:23
So in in the late 80s, I was well I graduated from Columbia in 1984. I went to work on Wall Street on the technical side. So I was writing programs for mortgage backed securities for LF Rothschild. And I was going to NYU business school at night getting my MBA. But I happen to read some books by James Clavell about Hong Kong. And I became obsessed with the whole idea of Asia and Hong Kong in particular. And partially because, of course, the history of Hong Kong is fascinating. And back then, it was a British colony. So you didn't have to speak any Asian language in order to live there. So I tried to get a job there. I tried to finish my MBA in Hong Kong. I tried everything. Nothing worked. So finally I just got on a plane like you said, one way ticket with two phone numbers in my pocket. I arrived. I called those people. I got a job right away. Back then very few Americans actually lived there. There were a bunch of Brits because Brits were allowed to just go and move to Hong Kong and work but not many Americans. And I just expected to follow Love, and I totally did. And that's why I stayed seven years. And I met my first husband there. And just had an incredible time traveling all over Asia. And just my it opened up my mind. So massively, I had been a student in Exxon Provence, I'd gone all over Europe, and what's not to love about Europe. But Asia was so completely different from Europe. And every culture is so different from each other, they each have their own alphabets. They have totally different religions, cultures, everything. So there's a lot more diversity in Asia than there is in Europe. And so I continue to, to travel all over Asia and continue to learn. It's a lifelong process. And like I said to you before, the more I know, the less I know, and it is endless, endless. So I'm, I'm still obsessed with reading about Asia, discussing Asia from the geopolitics. So what's going on in Asia now? Sort of Asia at a deeper level, not just what's the best hotel, even though I love the luxury hotels, but it's just a fascinating continent. And it's funny, because back in 1987, when I moved to Hong Kong, people said, why would you move there? Why don't you go move to London or somewhere in Europe, and I said, Well, been there, done that. But more than that, I'm just I just am obsessed with the whole concept of Asia. And I was at the bleeding edge sort of story of my life, always ahead of my time. And so now my friends that have moved there now, they said, I can't believe you loot there and 87. And nobody was doing that then. And it was, it was fascinating, because back then, China was not a fan of world powered Vax, it was a very, very much a developing country. And some might say it still is. But it was not the second most powerful, and nation in the world. And it certainly didn't have the second largest GDP. So just looking at what has happened over the years and how China has just exploded. It is just fascinating to have watched it all firsthand.
Roger Hurni 7:48
Wow, it's an it's an amazing story. I read a quote from Warren Buffett once I'm gonna paraphrase here, but he talked about the influence of nations in what we needed to prepare. And I heard this literally 20 years ago, where he said, the 19th century belongs to the British, the 20th century belongs to the Americans and the 21st century will belong to the Chinese. And that doesn't mean that they're going to overtake our GDP. I mean, they could be Yeah, who knows. But as far as being this country of influence that drives World Economics, I mean, you definitely can see it and the fact that you lived through that transition, I I find to be just amazing, very, very fortunate to to have done that. I could do like four shows just on your background, but we I want to talk about remote lands. So like I said, You've done a lot. But remote lands is an incredibly unique luxury travel company that you started, and given the clientele who theoretically can afford to do anything, go anywhere, make their own plans or hire anybody. I'm curious as to what makes remote lands stand out as the best option for travel to Asian and while you're answering that, and there's a lot to unpack in my statement here. And question. Also give everyone a little background about Remote Lands and who it serves and why you started the company.
Catherine Heald 9:19
So I started the company together with a partner who used to work with me in Hong Kong back in the early 90s. And he lives in Bangkok now, but we started the company because well for me. I wanted an excuse to travel back and forth to Asia all the time because I moved back to New York and 94 and still went to Asia at least once a year. But I had started three tech companies when I decided I do not want to be in the tech world anymore. Are what do I really love doing? What do I want to do when I wake up every morning? What gives me excitement? Well, it's planning travel to Asia. That's what excites me talking about Asia, and planning trips. So that was the whole impetus. So I was lucky enough to have found my calling in life 17 years ago by founding remote lands, because tech, like I said, was not my calling. So this, this is a lot more fun. And it's much more up my personal ally. And we the the whole concept from day one was luxury travel to Asia. And back then there were very few companies that went to Asia, and certainly none that were based equally in Asia, and in the US. So well, our head office is here in New York. But we have our Bangkok operations team, which is the same size as New York, we have about 25 people in Bangkok. And then we have teams on the ground in each country, in Asia. So even during the pandemic, when everybody was pivoting, we said no, we're not pivoting, we're gonna stick to our knitting stick to our DNA, which is luxury Asia. And we got through it. And we're still doing just luxury Asia. So
Roger Hurni 11:38
you, you jumped ahead to another question I had on my list, but I'll go there first. And she mentioned it. I thought that pandemic would pretty much shut you down. But it doesn't sound like it did all that much. I'm kind of curious what it was like to go through that. And were there any lessons learned?
Catherine Heald 11:57
Well, it was hell on earth. Just as the global financial crisis in 2008 to 10 was extremely difficult. But back then we weren't nearly as well positioned, and we weren't as well established. But by 2020, we'd already been in business for 14 years. So it was a bit easier. And we had we had hundreds of trips on the books, and we tried to reschedule as many as we could. Now, we ended up rescheduling, rescheduling, rescheduling. If people wanted their money back, we just gave them their money back. So we went either way. And some travel companies did not make it especially if you were focused exclusively on Asia, it was pretty tough. And a lot of companies went by the wayside. But fortunately, we were so well established that we made it through. And now 2023 is going to be our best year ever.
Roger Hurni 13:14
Although it's awesome. But in 2020 Did trouble. Did your trips for your clients just shut down? 100% Are you actually able to do any trips?
Catherine Heald 13:24
No, from from mid March onward, it was pretty much zero, right. And then in 2021, the UAE was specifically due by the Maldives, Oman, a few other places like Nepal, Uzbekistan, they started slowly opening up. And so we could do a few trips. Now people still had to test back then you had to test when you came back to the States. So that was putting a lot of people off because they didn't want to get stuck. So even if they could get to Dubai, in the Maldives, they didn't want to go because they didn't want to take that COVID test and then find out that they had to stay another two weeks in quarantine in some other country. So it was really, really tough. And I just I had to believe I had to wake up every day and believe that it was going to end soon, and and we'd be okay. And fortunately I am an eternal optimist. So I thought it would end a lot sooner than it did. But if I if I had known from day one that it was going to be three years. i Who knows I would have jumped out the window or shut the company down. But just that that belief that would end and we'd be okay. And in fact, that was accurate.
Roger Hurni 15:05
Yeah, you know, so many times, people think you're never going to overcome a situation or problem. And then one day, you do. And you can just persevere through through the bad. There's generally always good on the other side, such as that's
Catherine Heald 15:23
one of my favorite quotes. I think it's from Churchill, he said, When you're going through hell keep going. And that's what I said to myself every day, keep going through hell. And the, the whole point is that you will get through on the other side. And we did.
Roger Hurni 15:46
Yeah, when one of my, my business partner at one of my companies, he, I'm not sure where he got this from, but he, he always says when things are going badly, or when you see a situation going badly, ghosts act like the American bison. They're the only animal that when there's a store, they run toward it, so they can get through it faster. And I always thought, kind of a nice metaphor for, you know, taking things head on and getting through them as quickly as possible thinking the negative?
Catherine Heald 16:15
Yeah, I'd never heard that. So thank you for that. Oh, now you can
Roger Hurni 16:19
use that one as well. Yeah, it's in parallel to when I say you get through it. Clearly, you know, this, your your remote lands is is, is a very, very special company. But there's also a price tag that comes with that. So I'm curious, is it what? What's your business strategy for attracting new clientele?
Catherine Heald 16:44
Well, we work with virtuoso and global travel collection. And Serendip, Ian's in Europe. And we work with the top travel advisors all over the world. And they they know who we are. Now it took, it took about 12 years to actually become established, because the whole travel industry, it's, it's all about relationships. So when we first started offering our services to travel, advisors, travel agents, they said, Why should I work with you, we've been working with these other guys for many years. It just took just plugging away slugging away. And but the point is, by doing that b2b business, with all of those travel advisors all over the world, once they start working with us, for Asia, and the work with say, rora, Africa for Africa, they'll work with other specialists, they want to work with specialists. And so once they start working with us, for Asia, they just keep coming back over and over and over. And here in the States, especially, every ultra high net worth person has a travel agent who handles all of their travel all over the world. So they ask that they go to that travel agent and say, Okay, I want to go to Southeast Asia or Japan, or anywhere else, the Himalayas and then that travel agent Travel Advisor knows to come to us. And they come back to us over and over and over.
Roger Hurni 18:37
So that's, that's now that that's established in the beginning. Did you end up having to do some kind of fam trip for some of those advisors like the shoulder? Yeah.
Catherine Heald 18:49
Yes. And we so we joined virtual so in 2008. And we It took years of pounding the pavement going back to those agencies over and over and over before they finally start working with us regularly. So it's, it's it's really tough to break into the business if you're, we're what are called what's called a tour operator, or Asia tour operator and focused exclusively on luxury but we also I take personal pride in my knowledge of the remote lands of Asia, and sometimes there is no luxury so sometimes you have to sleep in a tent or a girl. And that's okay too. Because you're having this really intrepid and unique experience and you know, having traveled in off the beaten path in places like Nepal, or LA tree does not exist if you're climbing Mount Everest.
Roger Hurni 20:03
Well, I found that when I was doing the because I went to go climb kala Patar there and it was true during the trip to Basecamp from Luke law. I thought luxury was the tea houses instead of tents. That was a luxury to meet. I don't have to pitch a tent. Awesome, I'm good. Well, so it sounds like the, I gotta imagine it got easier once you did a few trips, because you're dealing with high net worth individuals. Um, you know, it's in that community and having worked on some luxury brands, there's it's their, their own grapevine. And so I imagine that eventually traction took hell took hold amongst amongst that audience to get you where you are today?
Catherine Heald 20:53
Yes, absolutely.
Roger Hurni 20:57
Is there you've probably tried a number of things, then over the years to get that traction going, was there something that you did that didn't work out? And why didn't it?
Catherine Heald 21:07
How does it things, it's so the blood, sweat and tears it took to get where we are today, 17 years later, going on 18 years later? Well, that's the story of my life is, is learning the hard way. And but learning from your mistakes, and just moving on, anytime you make a mistake. I mean, one of the one of our horrors was the Tokyo Olympics. So we had invested, we bought a ton of tickets, and we were so sure we're going to sell all these packages, and we sold a lot of them. And, and then the pandemic hit. So taking risk is one of the things as an entrepreneur, you need to take risks. But sometimes I took risks that were bigger than they should have been.
Roger Hurni 22:17
So if that if, if you could do one thing differently. Now, would it be like not to do the Tokyo thing? Or do you think that was still worth the risk? Because you just don't know how it's gonna pan out.
Catherine Heald 22:32
So Well, you never know what's going to pan out. Obviously, if I had a crystal ball, I, I would be in a much better position. So yeah, taking certain risks. I mean, one of the things I did I did early on was bring in an investor. And when you start bringing in investors, then you're not your own man anymore. You don't control your own destiny. And sometimes it works out. But a lot of times it doesn't, a lot of times, it ends in tears. If the company is doing well, then it's fine. But if the company's not doing well, the investors can just come in and, and boot you or anything. So fortunately, I bought out this investor. And so now she's out of the picture, but it is very risky. Bringing in investors.
Roger Hurni 23:37
Yeah, very true. So the you've got the company established, it's, it's doing very well. I personally look at some of the trips, and I'm sitting with my wife, and I was like, hey, is there something you'd want to do that we could afford? And so she's already looking. And we we love to travel as a whole, but particularly that part of the world? I'm kind of curious, what's next for remote lands, other continents other services that you don't do? What are you looking for? How are you looking forward to growth?
Catherine Heald 24:10
So I mean, that's a great question. And so. So this investor, for example, to somebody who's not in the travel industry, and we added the stands Central Asia recently, a couple years ago, we're right before the pandemic, so it was Becca, Stan, Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan, Tajikistan, and Kyrgyzstan. So we're doing more and more there. And of course, that's still Asia, that's Central Asia, the Caucasus is Asia too, and that's Georgia, Azerbaijan, and Armenia. So we're doing that as well. And we're just working with more and more advisors all over the world. And so more depth there instead of just the American advisors, which were our, our original bread and butter, but now we're working a lot more with European and South American, Mexican advisors, and Asian and bought advisors in Hong Kong and Singapore and China and Taiwan. So that that we're growing the client and agency base, rather than losing our DNA and taking on other parts of the world, if that makes sense.
Roger Hurni 25:37
No, it makes total sense. And that's, that's the problem with investors, it's, it becomes how do we expand and grow so I can get my get a 20% gain back or, you know, person in their head. And the obvious is always is not always the best choice. And the obvious is, well, yeah, you've got remote lands, Asia. Now, let's go like you said, Africa, wherever. And that does fundamentally change the DNA. And I'm really happy to hear that. Stay with your specialty, and find other places to expand within Asia that you're not. But even in the places that you are. My goodness, there's so many tiny little unique things that you probably haven't even uncovered yet. That can be part of a trip. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like, yes, you can have a tea ceremony, which I'm sure that you do for your clients. But all of a sudden, you'll discover some one in really remote China that has this amazing T experience that you'd never came across before. Those kinds of things pop up serendipitously sometimes. And it seems to me as an organization, that's the real opportunity is to continue this specialization and find the uniqueness that you bring over everybody else, as opposed to Let's replicate this model in Europe or Africa or wherever.
Catherine Heald 27:02
Oh, exactly. You're exactly right. And going more and more off the beaten path. In huge countries like India, like Japan. I mean, I've been to Japan, I don't know, dozens of times probably like 35 or 40 times, but who's counting? And, and I keep going to more and more remote areas. Same with India. It's endless, endless. So much to learn.
Roger Hurni 27:34
I have a couple questions, because we're almost at a time. I'm curious as to what's keeping you up at night. Now what's what's what are the challenges you're currently facing with Remote Lands that you think about all the time?
Catherine Heald 27:48
So managing growth. So growing organically is so much healthier than bringing in a bunch of money, like what we used to do in the tech business. Like I said, I founded three tech companies, we raised millions of dollars. My second company, we were we went public on NASDAQ in 1995. I was the youngest female CEO of a public company in America. So millions of dollars comes in when we go public. And then we hire all these people. And then you just, it's really, really difficult to manage that. And so I decided for remote lands. The best, the healthiest way to grow is grow organically bit by bit, instead of hiring 50 people all at once, and you're just all over the place. And I think this is one of the things that the tech companies, they're now the VCs are, are not all over them as much right now, because of many, many issues, but things like that. And the unicorns are so rare. So
Roger Hurni 29:07
it also you also find that why have seen you get further away from why you started the company in the first place. And the further you get, the more you realize you're not enjoying why you started the company to begin with. I had worked for some of the biggest ad agencies on the planet. And when I started my first company in 1998, I said I don't want to have more than 50 people. I'm lucky I really I want to specialize and I just want to be a part of the thinking and the part of the producing of the work and I don't need to have an agency with hundreds and hundreds of staff. It's just it didn't make sense. Now, do you just get too far away from why you want to do what you do? But I really I really What are you most excited about right now? For the?
Catherine Heald 30:04
Well, now, our number one country is Japan. It is crazy. Everybody wants to go to Japan. And so what, what I'm saying is, okay, go to Japan. But don't just go to Tokyo and Kyoto, go off the beaten path, go to more rural areas, go to small towns, which are the heart and soul of what Japan is and who the Japanese people are. So I get really excited when I go to all these remote little areas in Japan. And then I come back and I, I send, send our clients there, and going to places where I'd love getting on a plane, or a ferry or a train in these remote areas. And not just of Japan, but all of Asia. And I'm the only western person, like I feel I feel like okay, now I'm in the right place. So that really excites me. But besides that, it's just the endless learning and fascination I have. Another big change that's happened is Korea. The first 14 years of remote lands, nobody was going to Korea No, or people would go on business, I guess. But nobody was calling us for Korea. Then k pop hit. And the K wave, and K beauty and Kdrama and K cuisine. And Korea's the cool place now. So I love watching things move around. In. So in 2010, the big country was Myanmar. And everybody was going to Myanmar. Worse now, very few people are going we don't. It's so sad. I love Myanmar. It's one of my favorite countries. But we just hope that this terrible civil war ends soon so we can send people back there again.
Roger Hurni 32:27
Yeah, very much. Well, you've been great. I have one last question to wrap up. I found the conversation. Fascinating. But I always think that there's so much to learn and what you don't do. So I end every show this way. I'm curious. And you can make this personal or professional. What's the worst advice you've ever gotten that you said? No way am I doing that?
Catherine Heald 32:53
Well, I've been given a lot of advice about how, what I mentioned earlier, that I should expand and do the rest of the world. That that is really bad advice. Because we here in this office in New York, we are focused, we are completely focused on Asia. And that's what what we think about talk about all day, every day. And if we suddenly had to, like, raised a bunch of money, and then we had the Africa team and we had the South America team. I mean, that was that would be losing who we are. And I've seen other companies do that. They took that advice. And then they are no longer they do not exist because the travel advisors No longer would work with them.
Roger Hurni 33:51
I think staying true to your brand's DNA is the theme of this show. And I I applaud you for for doing that. And recognizing that and not taking bad advice from other people to expand in ways that you shouldn't. So I appreciate you being on the show. Thank you so much for the conversation. I really really enjoyed it. And I can't I can't thank you enough. I made it put an application in honestly, that's what I think I'm gonna do this year and work for you. So what am I work for you? I had been speaking with Catherine Heald. She is the Chairman and CEO of Remote Lands. Catherine, where can people learn more about you and Remote Lands?
Catherine Heald 34:30
Just remotelands.com. And we have hundreds and hundreds of itineraries on our website, tons of ideas of where you can go in Asia. I would say don't be afraid to step outside of your comfort zone. Because that's where the magic happens. And some of your most memorable, memorable experiences in life. You've come from stepping outside of that comfort zone. And taking a taking a risk. And some of your best stories will come from that.
Roger Hurni 35:13
Very, very true. Very, very true. We could talk all day about those. Again, thank you so much for being on the show. Everybody I am Roger Hurni, the host of From Persona to Personal. We'll talk to you next time.
Catherine Heald 35:25
Thanks, Roger. That was so much fun. I loved talking to you and getting to know you a bit and hope we can do this again soon.
Roger Hurni 35:36
I will do another two or three interviews. I can see it.
Catherine Heald 35:39
Thanks. Bye. Thanks.
Outro 35:45
Thanks for listening to From Persona to Personal, the podcast that takes a closer look into how organizations personalize their marketing. We'll see you again next time and be sure to click Subscribe to get future episodes.
