Telling Your Adventure Travel Stories With Richard Bangs of Mountain Travel Sobek, White Nile Media, and Steller
Richard Bangs is the Chief Adventure Officer at Steller, the Chief Creative Officer at White Nile Media, and the Co-founder of Mountain Travel (MT) Sobek. He was part of the co-founding team at Expedia and served as its editor-at-large. Richard authored 19 books, including his most recent, The Art of Living Dangerously. In 2006, he launched a PBS series of specials called Richard Bangs Adventures with Purpose, which he hosted from locations such as Egypt, New Zealand, Switzerland, India, and Morocco.
Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn:
Richard Bangs discusses the origin of Mountain Travel Sobek in 1973
How the adventure travel experience has evolved over the past 50 years
What life-changing impact can a trip that intentionally challenges a traveler have?
The effect of the pandemic on adventure travel
What was the inspiration behind Steller, and what benefits does the app provide?
Steller’s plans for personalizing its relationship with app users while making privacy a priority
What is The Art of Living Dangerously about?
The worst advice Richard has ever received
What you’ll learn in this episode:
Are you an adventure traveler? When you take a vacation, do you prioritize making a life-changing memory by engaging in challenging activities in an unusual location? If so, you probably have some great stories. Check out this episode to learn about an app called Steller that allows you to share your travel stories and see what others are experiencing at their destinations.
According to Steller’s Chief Adventure Officer Richard Bangs, the app — whose name is short for storyteller — is the world’s largest travel storytelling platform and application. It’s real travelers telling real stories about what they see and do. You can make recommendations on the app to encourage others to enjoy a similar transformational experience. Richard says adventure travel can amaze you and help you recognize the interconnectedness of everything changing and shaping your worldview.
On this episode of From Persona to Personal, Roger Hurni welcomes Richard Bangs, Co-founder of Mountain Travel Sobek, Chief Creative Officer at White Nile Media, and Chief Adventure Officer at Steller, for a fun conversation about the joys of adventure travel. Richard, as an avid adventurer and one of the co-founders of Expedia, explains how his platforms let adventurers share their experiences through the art of storytelling and discusses the transformational value of visiting different or unusual places.
Resources mentioned in this episode:
This episode’s sponsor:
Today’s episode is brought to you by Off Madison Ave. At Off Madison Ave, we create meaningful moments of brand trust and influence how people interact and engage with brands.
There is a science behind tapping into your audiences’ desires and motivation. After all, if you’re not changing your audiences’ behaviors, you can’t truly unlock all of your brand’s potential.
The proven models and methods of Behavior Design is the strategic foundation for your brands’ success.
Episode Transcript
Intro 0:00
This is From Persona to Personal podcast, today's episode is brought to you by Off Madison Ave. Off Madison Ave creates meaningful moments of brand trust and influences how people interact and engage with brands. The science behind their approach taps into your audience's motivations and desires. After all, if you're not changing your audience's behaviors, you can't truly unlock all of your brand's potential. Now, let's get started with the show.
Roger Hurni 0:34
Hello, everybody, I am Roger Hurni, the host of From Persona to Personal, where I get to speak with top leaders changing customer behavior so that they can propel their brand forward. I have an amazing great guest today. But before I get to that, today's episode is brought to you by Off Madison Ave. At Off Madison Ave, we use behavioral science to create meaningful moments of brand trust, which influences how people interact and engage with companies. Our behavioral approach taps into your audience's motivation and prompts them to shift behavior. And if you're not changing your audience's behaviors, you truly can't unlock all of your brand's potential. These proven behavior models and methods are the strategic foundation for your brand success. Visit offmadisonave.com to learn more. And today, I'm super excited. I feel like have a kindred spirit here in Richard Bangs. He is a co-founder of MT Sobek, a co-founder with Steller which is a travel experience sharing app. Like to get more into that conversation. He's also a co-founder of Expedia, a little company you might have heard of. Richard has written 19 books with a new one coming out later this year, The Art of Living Dangerously. And finally, if he hasn't done enough, Richard had that PBS series for 10 years called Adventures With Purpose. Richard, welcome to the show.
Richard Bangs 1:56
Hey, thanks Roger, good to be here.
Roger Hurni 1:57
I said I had a kindred spirit. You and I were talking before the show. I've done a little bit of mountaineering and, and some kayaking and river rafting. And so I'm a little bit of an outdoors person myself. And when I was reading your resume, I'm like, damn, I haven't done anything compared to you. While you're young. I appreciate that, you know what adventure to type first. MT Sobek appears to be the original adventure travel company may not be but it seemed to me like it was can you give the listeners just a little background on it and, and how it served for a catalyst for everything else you've done?
Richard Bangs 2:36
Sure, yeah. I mean, it was really, really my first endeavor in the, in the art of, of trying to explore places and then share the discoveries with, with like-minded. I would not say it's the first company to get some of Switzerland, which started in the 19th century, when when the Romantic poets and then their followers were heading to Switzerland to, to experience the sublime. They organized and created the first guided tours, so they, they deserve the credit as the originators of the idea of organized adventure travel. Thomas Cook also from, from the UK, also, in the mid-1800s, started taking people on, on organized trips with an emerging middle class that came with the industrial revolution. So he was, he was also credited with being the first to organize these sorts of things. So they've been inspirations to us from the beginning but we were likely the first in the US to offer an offer organized adventure travel. And it started really with mountain travel in 1969, offering the very first trucks to Nepal, into the foothills of the Himalayas. And it came out of the climbing dynamic where, where anybody who wanted to climb Everest or any of the mountains in the region would hire the Sherpas to carry the gear instead of pretense and cook and the idea of trekking to, to Mount Everest base camp. You've been there 17,000 plus feet by and then having the Sherpas create the climbing experience for those who are not technical climbers, but trekkers that appreciated the, the, the experience, the culture, and the views of her high Himalayas came into being with the first trucks in 1969. I started the company called Sobek in 1973, it's 50 years ago this year, and that concept came out of my being a river guide on the Colorado River the Grand Canyon which I started doing when I was 18. And that was clearly a life-changing experience for me to get involved in that at such a young age guiding through the Grand Canyon. And, and that that turned my head spun my axis and got me keen on taking the techniques, the technology, and taking like-minded friends overseas to see if we could take the rafting a formula to two rivers that had never been considered before. So we started in Ethiopia in 1973 and ran the upper structures and the Blue Nile main source of the Nile proper and, and rivers all through Ethiopia. It's, it's a plateau of a country about 8,000 feet average elevation that Tibet of Africa with giant rivers the pour off all quarters, and we started barreling down these unrun, unexplored rivers and inflatable rafts full of crocodiles and hippos and such and originally it was conceived as like this is a last Yahoo! before getting serious about life and all school and others but it was such an overwhelmingly powerful experience that we came out of it and said we can't turn our backs on this we need to share this so we started Sobek and it took off from there.
Roger Hurni 6:32
Wow, I know you again you were really gracious I'm gonna go off my questions just for a second did make a comment. One of the I've been to more than 50 countries I've climbed on four continents I will tell you that one of the top five the two of the top five best trips I've ever done that have life-changing was the trek from Lulu to Everest base camp and, and honestly seven days rafting the Colorado River in navy and anybody can do those trips so you don't have to like “I'm gonna climb Everest” be like in that kind of C-shape. But those are truly, truly life-changing experiences. The key to the question so Sobek, while you started in 1973 I got it all imagined back then the idea of adventure travel was not well embraced by the general public your idea was it was public very niche audience. How has that travel experience evolved over the years? How is that the travel adventure travel experience? matured? Because it seems like it's a really, a big thing, and even COVID made it a bigger thing to go out and capture these kinds of really unique experiences.
Richard Bangs 7:54
That's a great question. It was very much niche from week reap again, it was very difficult for us to recruit people to, to take a vacation is off the beaten track and was not horizontal clipboard not used to being active in their, in their vacation pursuits. The dream list to go to a beach for this collapse. And we'll come back, I think overstuffed and, and sunbird or take a cruise. But the idea of challenging yourself, pushing yourself having goals, and discovering what you're capable of doing in a world of necessity started to take off in the 70s as, as many things sort of conclude to make it possible and attractive. Prior to that, it was very difficult to travel internationally because the airlines had sort of a cabal. They were controlled by something called IATA the International Air Transport Association, which, which demanded that all airlines have the same price structure. It was very expensive to fly to Europe back then it was over $1,200 and that's probably $10,000 in today's terms. But then with the deregulation, deregulation of the airlines, when suddenly it became possible for people to fly on discount airways or fly creatively to charter so many things made possible for the, the less than the high, highly heeled, to get on a plane and start to explore these places. Another dynamic that happened was, was political, geopolitical, of back when I started slowly, a third of the planet was not available to American travelers. There was the iron curtain that prided itself like Eastern Europe and, and why I said there was the bamboo curtain that closed off China. Cuba was, was close to us. Much of Africa was close to this end goal up. And Mozambique. They were under communist regimes and Americans couldn't travel there. But you know, all that evaporated when the washing down. And suddenly, the entire planet became available to us as Americans. And all that was coupled with, I think, sort of a new consciousness that was emerging Stephanie's about exploring ways to prove yourself. That's not something that had that happened in post World War Two. But for whatever reasons, in the 60s and 70s, people started to look inward, and recognize that by, by being curious by challenging themselves by going to places that are out of their comfort zone, and meeting different types of people, and seeing things through their eyes, and, and being exposed to wildlife and wild places, would be something that was very rewarding when you come back, changed and come back transformed and come back. I'm more informed and inspired and, and a better person and a more connected person to the world as a result of adventure travel. And that took off. So the latter quarter your question, how is that changed, it has become not mainstream by any stretch, but it has become a real part of the travel tapestry. You know, millions of people go rafting every day, all over the world, when I started, there was no such thing as an international rocker did not exist anywhere on the planet. But now, virtually any, any country, any destination that has moving water will have some sort of rafting trip available. And people enjoy it, they love it, it's part of it, part of the personal repertoire is to, to have an adventure, or are multiple signatures as part of your audit of your, your, your leisure experience.
Roger Hurni 12:15
It's going to be hard for me to stay on track. Because I want to just talk about places you've been, and I've been in unstuck. But I, I want to translate something in there because you, you talked about connecting with people, you talked about life-changing. And one of the things I've seen as an outcome is you get a better understanding of the human condition. Because while you will get something out of it for having accomplished something, the people you meet along the way, it really has had an impact on me personally on how I look at business, how I connect with my clients, how I connect with their customers. And so I would, and maybe you disagree with me, I think this kind of travel gives you rewards far beyond the destination itself and what you get out of it. Because there are things that you can apply lessons you learn that you can apply to other parts of your life from this and at view. I know when I've traveled with other people, we always have that recap moment of like, oh my gosh, that was amazing. And this person I met was amazing. And do you see people's lives, like change at the end of the trip like that as well?
Richard Bangs 13:33
Yes, I think travel of this type is transformational. And I think the person who enters an adventure travel trip is often very different from the person who emerges, then, you know, it's a process that that can take place incrementally, or it can be profound. But you are a different person. Because you've experienced new things. It's like, it's almost like dialing back to childhood where you were you, you're crawling into a different room and see things for the first time, and amazes you your eyes are wide open, and new assimilate what you've seen. And that goes into your sort of personal catalog of, of experiences. And it helps to help shape your worldview. And the great benefit of travel and stipends you recognize the interconnectedness of all things, something that time is, is often not available to us if we stay at home or the concern that many people have with the, with the social media phenomenon is that we are all siloed and we just get this feedback loop that allows us to only see the world through a very distorted and limited lens. And one of the cures for this It's certainly contributed, I think, to a lot of my myopia, myopia. And, and, and short-term destructive thinking and actions that have taken place around the world in the last decade. But one of the solutions to this is to get out and experience and meet people, and discover how we have a common humanity, how and how of the other, who would fit in the distance in a silo is easy to condemn, and say, there's, there's evil or agendas or whatever it is, but to discover the that the people everywhere have the same wants, desires, happiness, love of music, a level of love, and touch. And to, to, to see that to immerse in that is, is, is, is it was a moment of, of alacrity and wonder and wow. And, and a feeling of validation of who we are, as part of this was great, great shift of humidity. So, man, it's a great power.
Roger Hurni 16:14
Thanks for allowing me a minute to geek out I try to stay on task here. I want to do, I do want to talk about the pandemic because I'm imagine everything just shut down. And did you do anything differently there? Were there lessons learned?
Richard Bangs 16:33
But yes, I think the pandemic I think obstructed so many things, on many, in a good way. Firstly, when it became apparent that I that people did not want to, to travel, or could not travel, in what was sort of a mainstream traditional way, on buses, on cruise ships, etc. The discovery was that one of the few activities that you could have, and I think it's part of human nature, we all get out and do something in our leisure time, that can, that can give us solace meaning and, and validation. What one of the few activities that was available was, was an adventure travel trip, or rafting, hiking, mostly in for Americans in, in national parks or in, in rural wilderness areas that will protect them. And for several reasons. People took that up often for the first time. A, one is outdoors. And the perception was, of course, if you're outdoors, you're less likely to be exposed to COVID. On secondly, you would, you would travel with friends and family who were vetted or double-tied. So people would charter a raft trip. And guides are and of course, we're, we're all tested ad nauseam, to make sure that they were as healthy as possible, heading down in a wilderness setting. And of course, it's active. And it's healthy. So there was a surge in people experimenting with a type of travel that really had been maybe on their backburner or not even in their, in their mindset. And I think in most cases of not all people came out of that going this is, this is a discovery, this is something I want to pursue plus pandemic, and they have this there's been a rise I think, in, in, in bookings, for all the adventure travel companies post-pandemic because people, people have gravitated toward that as a, as a renewable way to travel. But secondly, I do think, as part of COVID people recognized that in a way that, that was not top of mind that we are not, we are Frasure that life is finite. And that might really put many people in a mindset that, you know, I've always wanted to go to Everest base camp. I don't want to postpone in Aden longer. I want to go do it now. And so with the opening up of the world, many people have gone after things that they mentally postponed on. Well, because they recognize that, you know, there's, there's no better moment than now. And things could change radically overnight as they did in the in, in in 2020. So, yeah, I think it's it's, it's allowed a different culture of thinking when it comes to adventure travel and why it should be pursued.
Roger Hurni 19:57
So the curious did MT Sobek Travel, did that have an influence on starting Steller, where and I want to give you have you give a little background on that. Because I know whenever I travel, people always ask me like, What was this place that you went to when you found whatever you know, and it's easy those golden finds that don't show up on Yelp or you know, TripAdvisor or something else like that. What was the catalyst for Steller, how's that going? That app.
Richard Bangs 20:33
But very well, it's a platform, I think it's become the world's largest trouble storytelling, platform and application. It's spelled s-t-e-l-l-e-r, which stands for storyteller. And it's always been a passion of mine to be figured out how he could marry technology and travel, to benefit all, all participants in that in that chain, the value chain. And at Expedia, we, we tried to see if we could get more front end of the value proposition by creating content. And I created a lot of content for early Expedia. But it never really worked. It turned out that back then, people who were new to Internet commerce wanted to get permission as quickly as possible. The cheapest air fire the cheaper turtle, and, and be able to book as seamlessly as possible. So the idea of going from inspiration to information to action was kind of a holy grail that we could never realize at Expedia. So with Steller and, and, and people now traveling, you know, with, with, with their cell phones is their, is their mobile, computer and source of all information cetera, the idea of creating a platform where you could go as you travel, and seek out what other travelers have experienced and recommended. And it seemed like a very good proposition multimedia, which you've probably seen, so it' on the member. Video is video. It's got every destination of the ladder, this point. And you can find one and you can actually book, could we have a relationship with Truvada, so you can, you can use a geo, geotargeted map that every student, so should slavery story, it shows the hotels that are available in their booking on look more than anything, it's, it's real travelers telling real stories about what they actually see, and experience and they're making their recommendation. So you can go there. And you can, you can see. And that was vivid, and, and wonderful ways what, what a place can offer.
Roger Hurni 23:07
Yeah, I would see that. For those who don't know it, it feels Insider. It feels like there's, there's somebody that's a kindred spirit telling you about some sort of place where a lot of the other apps or that are like that, that's probably a poor way of putting it like that. But in that tribal space, they're more concerned with trying to sell me a tour of something, then they are trying to tell me the more interesting, unique experiences that I could get from a place.
Richard Bangs 23:45
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, it's, you know, it's, it was easy when we started this to, to look at all the other platforms that are out there and see what we saw with the fact that that many of the, the platform offerings are transitory, the femoral, you make something and disappears. That doesn't work in the travel space.
Roger Hurni 24:09
But no, no, I baby, I know that dads were on the on the Steller vein because it is an app and you're right, that it that mobile experience, you know, you carry it with you in your pocket. Now our phones have practically become an appendage. Do you find that? Are you doing anything from a mobile marketing perspective? You know, to help sort of those travelers find places or deliver a push notification Strategy. What are you doing anything from a marketing perspective around the mobile app experience?
Richard Bangs 24:45
Well, it's all searchable. So there is a search, magnifying glass on, on every page so you can if you're going anywhere in the planet, you can plug it in, and you'll find stories created by, by people who have been their Real travelers. So that's, that's somewhat unique. And we're moving towards more personalization, so you can sign up for notifications. Like, let's say you're planning a trip to Aconcagua. And you would like to be alerted whenever anybody posts the story on Aconcagua that will be available to you, you have Ross just has a unique aspect to about it, which I should probably share, we have a couple of key partnerships. So we are the exclusive provider for travel stories for being travel. So, you'll see 1000s of stories of the best stories really, on big travel, which gets about 150 million unique users a month. Now, we're also in an exclusive partnership, which provider was mentioned earlier, as far as, you know, hotels and booking hotels within any destination, but you're also right, the primary proposition is not to sell you a tour or hotel, that sort of It's a deadline, if you like what you see, or a destination or an activity. And you're just go, Look, I'd love to go there. What are the hotel offerings, that's available for you to look at and book coaching searches.
Roger Hurni 26:18
The amount of behavioral data that you are collecting, both implicit and explicit, just must be tremendous. And it is clear to me with my background and consumer behavior that that you are just a treasure trove of data to allow for truly, truly relevant personalization at a scale on a one to one basis at scale. Then a lot of companies that I ended up speaking with, and I know, I know, a lot of companies are moving toward that, and it seems like you are as well. And to me that always feels like the the holy grail of getting to that one to one conversation. And is that a good summation of like, where you see Steller going?
Richard Bangs 27:09
Yes, yes. And no. You know, Google, I think Google travel put on last year, it's saying, come to Google, because we know what you want for your next vacation. We know where you're going to go. And that, to me, sounded a little bit scary. We we do have a measure of personalization. And we do have a lot of data. We're very concerned about privacy. So we don't share any data with anybody. And we intend to make it elective if you would like to be pushed information from you sign up for it. And you can sign off anytime you want. But he likes to be pushed information, it's relevant to you or what you have seen in the past, or what appears to be of interest to you. Maybe an activity. So it could be mountain climbing. But it's always going to be an opt in that we're not going to do anything on you're selling information to potential advertiser, et cetera, et cetera. Yeah, that's, that's one of our lessons that we want, we want to make sure that this is as user friendly, and the user owns his data. Right? That's important these days.
Roger Hurni 28:26
Yeah. And their, their mobile marketing, automation platforms that that do that the, for all the listeners, there's a very, very fine line between creeping somebody out with personalization, because it says Google's ad was like this big brother, we know what your next trip is going to be, which is creepy. There's a big difference between that. And any company in any space using that kind of behavioral data, particularly from a mobile app perspective, in delivering the kinds of things that the subtext is we think we understand you, here are some options in the world of everything to make it easier for you to go to where you would like to go to next. And options are relevant and personalized because of the examination of that behavioral data. That's a different story. That's a different message, then we know where you want to go next. creepiness.
Richard Bangs 29:26
Yeah, I agree with you.
Roger Hurni 29:29
Yeah. So what I what I meant that like that's an opportunity for Steller. Yeah. It's in that context, because you don't you want to make sure your all your data is first party, you, you want to make sure the user has 100% control over it. And that's the only way you get to address privacy needs and personalization in a genuine,
Richard Bangs 29:52
authentic way. Yes, absolutely.
Roger Hurni 29:56
We only have a couple of minutes I have a couple more questions. I just want you to give this a shot. Because honestly, this is like, I can easily do four interviews with you. You know, one on MT Sobek. One on Steller. One on your books, I wanted to give just – what's The Art of Living Dangerously going to be about and when does it come out?
Richard Bangs 30:17
So, because this is the 50th anniversary of So, but that is kind of the through line. So, it's, it's sort of looking at how I and my friends started. So back in how it evolved, and the various crises that it had to deal with to, you know, to keep going, you know, over over the various challenges. You know, it's more of a lifestyle business, and it is this, you know, a widget business business. So um, and we pursued this lifestyle, and it's, it's, it's had moments. So we had, during one of the Gulf Wars, we had a really, really hard time, I had to get a second mortgage in my house to meet payroll. But you know, we made it through it. And we've we continue with the original mission, which is to explore as much as possible. When opportunistically and then, and then see if we can offer what we have found to do our friends and family and clean Intel. As you probably know, this is something that's very important to me personally. I've continued to to try to push the envelope and get into places that others have not been able to. So I do I lead the first trips to North Korea, the first to Saudi Arabia with links to Iran, first to Libya, the first to Yemen, I led the first trip to mainland China back in 1977, before Braddock, I just I just came back last last year, for a mo. My the first trip deconstruct Angola, in the wake of their 25 year civil war. So just possible to get in there. And it was a relevant trip to because it was to the headwaters, the Okavango River, which the Chinese would like to dam or the Angolans are somewhat receptive to that idea, because it contains the economics of of that part of Angola. But at the same time, because they built that dam, the would threaten the Okavango Delta in Botswana, which employs about a million people and has the largest elephant population in the world. I'm a cosmologists. So our mission was to prove the tourism could be a viable alternative to building this dam. And we brought a bunch of high end and influential Soviet clients there. And, and I did a piece of speech in the book about how about how tourism of this type, as Botswana has demonstrated in spades can be a national mandate. And it can, it can connect, it's non extractive, it's renewable and sustainable. And it can be something that really makes a positive difference, not only for threatened area within Syria, but for for understanding and for connectedness to the rest of world which Angola needs.
Roger Hurni 33:39
Well, you have, should have, are leading a very rich life and one I am envious I am as clearly an amateur in my adventures.
Richard Bangs 33:49
You're pretty good. You're doing great.
Roger Hurni 33:51
Oh, what's sad is the handful of stuff that I've done in my life is, is still greater than probably 90% of the people in the world, which is is, you know, in five or more, probably 95 or more, I think I saw a stat that was something like I'm probably gonna get this wrong, and someone's gonna call me out on it. And that's fine. Do something. I only 35% of people in the United States have a passport.
Richard Bangs 34:15
And that's mostly because Mexico and Canada require it now.
Roger Hurni 34:18
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So get out there. I have one last question. We've had a good conversation, I think and there's some good lessons learned there. A lot of times, what you don't do is more important than what you do do. And so I'm kind of curious is, what's the worst advice you've ever gotten? No.
Richard Bangs 34:39
Is this a standard question for you?
Roger Hurni 34:41
It is, it's actually how I end every show. And I will why you're thinking I will actually tell you that it came from a company that I worked for in an ad agency that's not on my LinkedIn profile. So if you look it up, it's not there, where I all the advice the owner had given me was bad and and I learned so many things on how not to treat people how not to treat clients and, and all the advice really taught me all of her bad advice really taught me a lot. So that's why I end the podcast with this way, so.
Richard Bangs 35:16
Well, it’s a great question. I'm sure there are a lot of rich and high and in depth ways to respond to that, because we've all had a lifetime of experiences where people have given us advice that, that that turned out to be demonstratively wrong. I would say just to sum it up, that almost anytime I've headed out to a place or down a river of that has never been written before. There are many people that say, don't go. And that's all is, in my opinion, that's always been the worst advice when they say don't go, that's what I want to go. And I think everybody should listen to that. I eat this don't go go.
Roger Hurni 35:59
Oh my gosh, I have had that advice. So many times I like in my first climb to Africa was like don't go first ever thing track don't show me actually picks a bar. So I I tried to reverse in 2013 and was when the cyclone hit hit India and we had to bug out. You probably know that little village like Che. And so we had a helicopter out. Because it the the storm had dumped nine feet of snow on Basecamp the next morning. So we had gotten out when we were saved. A lot of people were stranded there for about three or four weeks, like a couple of 1000 hikers and trekkers. And, and one of my friends on his advice of don't go when I came back said See I told you not to go. We all survived. misread it again, I appreciate the conversation I know went a little long today. Well, I might be calling you back up to interview us specifically about Expedia or the the PBS show. Like I said, there's a lot of interviews in you, I think, where can people learn more about you, Richard and what you're doing with the companies you're involved in?
Richard Bangs 37:11
Sure, I mean, you know, all of them have websites that are pretty obvious. It's mtsobek.com, steller with an s-t-e-l-l-e-r dot co or com, either one works. You know Expedia, pretty self evident. I've, I've got a website. I don't, I don't do a lot with it. But you could go to richardbangs.com. I love he could just if you could Google me and find out all sorts of terrible things. So
Roger Hurni 37:41
All right, well, it's always nice when I talked to somebody goes, Yeah, you just Google me. You're gonna find everything. Again. Thank you so much for the conversation today. I really would love fun. I am Roger Hurni, the host of From Persona to Personal and we will see you next time. Great. Thanks again.
Outro 37:58
Thanks for listening to From Persona to Personal, the podcast that takes a closer look into how organizations personalize their marketing. We'll see you again next time and be sure to click Subscribe to get future episodes.
