Using Cultural Moments to Market Your Brand With Andy Shallal, Founder and CEO of Busboys and Poets
Andy Shallal is the Founder and CEO of Busboys and Poets, a restaurant group known for its intentional intersection of art, culture, and politics, featuring mindfully sourced food, drinks, books, and event programming. Andy is a dedicated advocate for progressive business and labor practices and is actively involved in several boards, including the Institute for Policy Studies and Race Forward. As an artist, social entrepreneur, husband, and father of four, Andy is committed to making his hometown of Washington, DC, a more livable community.
Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn:
Andy Shallal shares the inspiration behind Busboys and Poets
Why Andy felt compelled to bring various backgrounds and cultures together under one roof
What propelled Busboys and Poets from its initial success to opening eight locations?
The philosophy behind breaking bread together as a means to reduce polarization
How art, culture, and politics shape the vibrant environment at Busboys and Poets
Andy advocates professionalizing the hospitality industry to make it a more desirable career choice
The challenges faced by Busboys and Poets in achieving sustainable success
What you’ll learn in this episode:
In a world where people often hold conflicting political beliefs and widely divergent views, is there any hope of bridging the gap and cultivating a sense of unity among individuals with opposing ideologies?
According to Andy Shallal, the visionary behind Busboys and Poets, positive human interactions can bridge differences and promote understanding. He shares a story about customers with opposing views who came together at his establishment despite initial reservations. Their encounter unfolded with grace, broke down preconceived notions and stereotypes, and demonstrated the transformative power of genuine human connections. This account exemplifies how an establishment like Busboys and Poets, which values unity and finding common ground, can create opportunities for people to transcend their differences and foster a more compassionate and empathetic society.
On this episode of From Persona to Personal, Roger Hurni welcomes Andy Shallal, Founder and CEO of Busboys and Poets, to chat about his distinctive hospitality concept and its evolution into a vibrant community space. He shares insights into his activism journey, the challenges of maintaining a solid team, and his establishment’s impact on cultural and political landscapes. Andy’s revolutionary approach provides a glimpse of the hospitality industry’s potential contribution to society.
Resources mentioned in this episode:
This episode’s sponsor:
Today’s episode is brought to you by Off Madison Ave. At Off Madison Ave, we create meaningful moments of brand trust and influence how people interact and engage with brands.
There is a science behind tapping into your audiences’ desires and motivation. After all, if you’re not changing your audiences’ behaviors, you can’t truly unlock all of your brand’s potential.
The proven models and methods of Behavior Design are the strategic foundation for your brand’s success.
Episode Transcript
Intro 0:02
This is From Persona to Personal podcast. Today's episode is brought to you by Off Madison Ave. Off Madison Ave creates meaningful moments of brand trust and influences how people interact and engage with brands. The science behind their approach taps into your audience's motivations and desires. After all, if you're not changing your audience's behaviors, you can't truly unlock all of your brand's potential. Now, let's get started with the show.
Roger Hurni 0:34
Hello, everyone, I am Roger Hurni, the host of From Persona to Personal where I get to use my expertise in consumer behavior to engage with top business leaders who are propelling their brands forward. Before I get to today's guest, this episode is brought to you by Off Madison Ave. At Off Madison Ave, they use behavioral science to create meaningful moments of brand trust, which influences how people interact and engage with brands. The agency's behavioral approach taps into your audience's motivation and prompts them to shift behavior. This can truly unlock all of your brand's potential. These behavioral models and methods are the strategic foundation for your brand success. Visit offmadisonave.com to learn more. Now, without further ado, I came across a very interesting gentleman that has an amazing business model. And his name is Andy Shallal. He is an activist, artist, which near and dear to my heart since I studied art in college. He's also the founder and CEO of Busboys and Poets. Andy, welcome to the show.
Andy Shallal 1:36
Thanks so much for having me.
Roger Hurni 1:38
All right, let's first start. Did I butcher names or get anything wrong there? No, I'm all good. Yeah, good. All right. Everyone has a first you your business model is probably the most unique hospitality concept I've ever come across. Can you give me a little background on the idea’s inception.
Andy Shallal 2:02
Or I always wanted to play that sort of combines many different things that we all love to do when we go out. So a bookstore, a performance space, a bar, a lounge, a dining room, a private space for meetings and gatherings to talk about interesting issues. And always wondered, like, how can we put those under one roof, rather than having to go see a show, here's some poetry in one place and have to get back in your car and drive across town to go eat dinner and then drive the car drive across town to do something else. I wanted to have a place that you can do all these things. And that was kind of the genesis behind it. Also wanted to have a place that really kind of feels like a place that I want to go to a place that brings different people from different backgrounds and cultures together. Place where the area that I'm in, can bring people from different walks of life, and have them break bread together. So that we can actually create a better understanding of one another sometimes when we are isolated from people that are different from us, make judgments about them. And we tend to you know, polarize as a society. And having a place we can break bread together, I think can take away some of that polarization and help us to create a better world and better understanding of people who may be different.
Roger Hurni 3:32
You know, it's, it's really fascinating I, I've always considered myself a global citizen. And I also have an art background as well. I've told people if they want to be great at their job, doesn't matter what it is stockbroker, artists, like anything between if you can study the human condition and understand people, no matter where they live in the world, you'll have a much better viewpoint on how to deal with different situations. And the more I have traveled, I find that people aren't as different as people believe that there's these common denominators of wanting to raise your children well, having a better life for them, trying to do better all the time, taking care of family working hard, like there's all these things that we could use to relate to one another, which is why I love this, the space that you created for the intersection of politics and culture and art. So it's a noble mission. And it's a fascinating place that I cannot wait to visit. But after all these years has Busboys and Poets. Is it is it where you wanted it to be?
Andy Shallal 4:41
Well, it's it's certainly has filled a gap that has been here for a long time. I worked years ago, I worked on the Jared rock campaign back when he ran for the president that country, early 90s. And I did one and I was in charge of his Virginia effort. And I remember my house became kind of Grand Central come from all over the you know the state to come and, you know, have meetings so on, we could never have a place where we can have a meeting that was a public space. And every everyone was either a church basement where, you know, the lighting was bad for insurance, you know, not very comfortable, or it was somebody's home. So, you know, I wanted that other place, we can go and have dinner, and be able to have a drink and be able to have a conversation with folks that maybe have like mine, or who want to get involved, let's say. And so that kind of space was something that I wanted to have. And so when I opened up Busboys and Poets was kind of the intention was creating such a space where activists can come there and connect with other activists and be able to make changes that that'd be it happened, their community, and their city council for, you know, people running for office and so on. And, you know, during moments like we are facing right now, the, the situation in Gaza and Israel, you know, we have become a place where people come and have meetings there and have conversations there, we invite, you know, important people to come and talk about these issues, so that we can have better understanding of what's going on around the world. So I think Places like this are really necessary, no matter what town it's in, every town needs a place like this, so that they can have an opportunity for the community to intersect with each other and come up with some common understanding of how we want to grow as a community.
Roger Hurni 6:40
So it sounds like it became what it what you set out to do, right?
Andy Shallal 6:46
Absolutely. I think, you know, I didn't know what I was going to end up with, when we first started, I just wanted a place that's going to at least pay the bills and be able to do stuff that I enjoy doing. The art, the politics, the culture, that collision that I think oftentimes can be exciting. And what I saw the success behind it, we've opened eight places so far. So there are a location, the Washington Metropolitan Area in DC. And you know, the interest is there. People really want to have places like this. They want to place their community. And I still talk today, constantly, almost every day I get somebody asking for, you know, can you open up Busboys and Poets in my neck of the woods? You know, it's it's obviously, it doesn't have to be Busboys and Poets, but community spaces like this absolutely necessary.
Roger Hurni 7:44
Was there was there something difficult you had to overcome to get it off the ground? Or get people to accept the idea behind it?
Andy Shallal 7:54
I mean, he always, you know, whenever you go into business, you're always skeptical about whether or not it's maybe successful. You know, if you're not, you're probably, you know, you have to think about these things. And, yes, of course, I, I had no idea that it was going to be successful right away, frankly. And I put everything I had on the line, and it's not as successful from the get go. And probably shortly thereafter, I was heavily funded or financially very down very secure. So I, you know, it was interesting, when I first wanted to open busboys, and poets, I approached several banks to try to get loan to get started. And most of the banks I approached, were not interested, they didn't want to see plays as part of the culture and politics, the link coffee, free Wi Fi, and lots of spaces to hang out. And, you know, less and less, and it's been a lot of money for which was not exactly money making, you know, Endeavor at this point. So, I was turned down. And, you know, finally, when I finally got a bank that agreed to do it, they understood that, you know, each one of those items that I mentioned, in and of itself, they don't make money, but combining them together, you're able to create the synergy that can actually, you know, bring in people to eat and drink and spend money there. Maintain the place.
Roger Hurni 9:24
Excellent, excellent. I'm kind of curious. You're only in the Washington, DC, Virginia area, like, right in there. If I got that correct. Where do you Where would you like Busboys and Poets to go from here? I don't know. I don't and I mean, that in two ways, in terms of growth, and in terms of are you looking at trying to expand across the country?
Andy Shallal 9:50
Well, I've been approached by by several cities to open up there. Oakland, California, Chicago, Illinois, liberal country. ZE York, New York, New York, all these travel to these places, Minneapolis, Minnesota, I've traveled this place and looked at possibilities of doing placement there, you know, it's an issue of capacity at this point to be able to spread yourself and go to all these different places, a lot of buzz goes opposed very personal. And I think it's not as easy to handle when somebody else than let's say, an ice cream store or a donut shop, you know, it's a very different type of makeup. Right. So it depends on the politics, it depends on the vibe and the energy that you bring into, into into the room. So all of these things had to be taken into consideration. On a growth level, I mean, I'm, you know, we are trying to be, you know, trying to branch out in different areas like using, like publishing, in areas like that, to be able to expand the brand and use the brand in a way that can go just beyond the brick and mortar kind of idea of a restaurant
Roger Hurni 11:12
where your restaurants have their challenges. Operationally, I mean, you know, staff come and go, just menus and dealing with the shifting changes and menus, you've decided to take that and make it 100 times more difficult by adding in the atmosphere, they are going to, I'm kind of curious, like what has been the more difficult operational challenges you've had to deal with? Well,
Andy Shallal 11:39
either of their staff, of course. I mean, I think that, like you said, most of the most people that come into this business and want to do the spinners usually come in because they want to work in a restaurant, we are at three ring circus, we're not just a restaurant, we have many different things. You know, we have events and programs. And constantly, people are holding us to a higher standard, because we espouse that idea of social justice. So we are always trying to be at the forefront of speaking out on issues like one fair wage, like when Black Lives Matter was happening, we were at the forefront of that issue. What's happening right now in Gaza, and Israel, we are the forefront of that issue. And that comes with a cost. And sometimes it's difficult on our staff, because not all of them necessarily understand the depth and nuances of the ideas there that we we try to bring into the space. And they have to, you know, kind of have to learn it really in order for them to be able to answer the questions and be able to address some of the concerns that maybe some customers may have. So that's an ongoing challenge for us. And for some people, you know, hiding place to be because that had those elements. And for other people, those elements are just too much for them to handle. They don't stay.
Roger Hurni 13:05
You know, this is how do I put this? Generally, when someone would come to a place like Busboys and Poets, I got to imagine that they are open minded to having conversations and exploring other points of view. Has that ever backfired? Because it seems like it would be right to do that.
Andy Shallal 13:28
Yeah, I mean, you know, some, some folks wanted to come here and have a fundraiser for pro life organization. And we are unabashedly pro choice. And so this was around the time when Roe v Wade was being overturned, and we canceled the event and that created all kinds of issues, where people are really upset about the fact that we can say that, you know, right now, you know, the issue with with Gaza, and Israel is a landmine of issues, right. I mean, it's very hard to navigate it without pushing off somebody. You know, so yes, we get people they get pissed off and they write to us and they, you know, say bad things about what we're doing. But we continue to kind of stand firm and say, you know, we are a place where racial and cultural connections are consciously uplifted. You know, we are a place where art culture and politics comes together and clients and you got to be able to want to be embedded in in such a space you can isolate yourself instead of funny social video the line if you want to worry about and in the world and express your opinion in a different way in a public space, they can hear others and other people's ideas and opinions. So you know, I think we we tried to be I mean, at some point, we try to be open and accepting of everyone. But we get sometimes criticized and that we lean left. And therefore, if you're, you know, on the Magga side of the world, you may not feel welcomed here. But at the same time, we really work really hard not to discriminate against, you just want to come and eat here. We're not gonna let somebody from, you know, from a Donald Trump, let's say, campaign, come here and do a fundraiser for Donald Trump. But you're just not going to do that. Because that's not the values that we want to hold up. But we will let them come and have dinner. I mean, I don't know, we don't ask your political affiliation. If you're sitting down and eating dinner, I don't care if you have to pack a hat or not. You know, and it's interesting, because that when, when Trump was elected, they, the day of the inauguration here in Washington, DC, there were people here for the inauguration. Right. And they many of them had MAGA hats, you know, the red hats on. And there was a there was an incident that happened with three guys with MAGA hats came into my sports and poets to have lunch. And I don't think they do, what we are and what we stand for, but they were hungry, and they wanted to eat and I guess we were a place that was open and they just walked through the door. And you could see, you know, them looking around and wondering, you know, it's it's kind of a different kind of place, because our art and our music and our staff and everything, no more of a mix of people. And so they, they came in this handout, this server was a black woman named Roslyn. As she had, she waited on them. And she greeted them with grace and they reciprocated and they had a wonderful conversation. And then they opened up to her and they you know, one of them says, I'm a dentist and I love your smile. And you know, and so they hit it off. And she said, Oh, you're here for the MAGA event. And I guess they expected her to be mad at them or something. But she wasn't she was gracious that she was wonderful. And when they left they left a note on the bill saying Dear Roslyn, despite our differences in in raised and political affiliation or interest, we can all be, you know, that all live together here as Americans, thank you very much, the weekend is just a welcome. And they left her $150 Tip spot on a $75 check. So it's really interesting to see that sometimes interactions on a on a human level can actually create a different vision of how we see the other. She saw them differently. And they thought differently.
Roger Hurni 17:58
I will tell you, that gives me hope for the cultural and political situation our country is in and I am an idealist at heart. And I want to think the very best of our country. And, you know, when you when you grew up in New York City, and you've gone to the Statue of Liberty a boatload time you start to believe in the you know, give me you're tired and you're poor, and you know, everything that is there because we are this melting pot. And I feel like Busboys and Poets are this living examples of it, you know, that we don't get to see every day? How? Sorry, I went off on a tangent there because I just really love the idea. How, how have you approached marketing, that kind of concept?
Andy Shallal 18:45
Um, you know, we don't do a ton of marketing. You know, we do events, we do programs, and those are public events, public programs, and that, you know, goes around to different organizations and different people and so on. So people see as we don't we don't do like, you know, marketing, per se. We use social media to promote some programming that we do. And that itself to us is how we do our marketing. Yeah,
Roger Hurni 19:13
well, I would beg to differ that you don't do marketing you actually do it's there's word of mouth. There's different even the picture that even the story they said about the Rozlyn that the experience there is its own marketing in
Andy Shallal 19:31
additional that went viral that went viral because we put it on our Instagram went viral, but everywhere. The New York Times CNN, everybody picked it up because everybody was looking for happy story during the inauguration when everybody felt very polarized. So that really went viral everywhere. In fact, so much so that the New York Times ended up researching and finding out who those guys were because there was no way for us to know you know, they paid with a credit card but you you Really can't trace it through the credit card, right? So they ended up doing research and finding out that one of the guys actually lived in Texas. And they did a zoom call with him because they wanted to make sure that this wasn't just a PR stunt, but a real incident that happened. And so they, they, they called him. And there's an interview with him, when they said, What made you do this? Why did you leave this money and so on? And he said, you know, and he was teary eyed. He says, You know, I really felt welcomed. I felt like I really felt the connection that day. And it was was fascinating to see how, how moved he was by the experience he had, which, you know, should not be typical, you know, but still, he was very, very impressed by it. Yeah,
Roger Hurni 20:48
well, I would, I would categorize that your marketing is putting out there. The culture of Busboys and Poets in unique opportunistic ways. It's, it's not an ad, and it's not necessarily PR, but finding a way to amplify those opportunities in those cultural moments, I think are, are the thing that makes you very unique in that in that way. Um, I we're getting short on time, and you've been really gracious with it. I just have a couple of other questions. I'm kind of curious as to what's the biggest challenge you're facing right now?
Andy Shallal 21:30
Well, there's a lot of pressure to grow. And, you know, and building capacity is is, is the challenge that we have to constantly facing. And that is making sure that we have the right people on the bus as we move forward, as they say, you know, the right people, be the folks that are committed to not just your hospitality, but also the kind of hospitality that we're working on here, where it diffuses the art, culture and politics into it. So that's the challenge. You know, of course, the people who get are amazing, and they love being here. But finding those people is harder than they think, you know, people don't want to, there are people that want to do the social justice stuff, and they work in NGOs, and there are people that wanted to hospitality. So finding someone that wants both, is a unique kind of person. So, you know, this is a people business, you know, although we sell food, but it's a people business. And, of course, people are the most important resource we have. So we constantly have to be finding the right people. That's our biggest challenge.
Roger Hurni 22:47
I've heard that a lot from people in the hospitality space, in general. So that's that, that makes sense. I, you know, it leads me to another question that that's I'm kind of curious as you just your personal opinion, there's been a lot of behavioral shifts and dining and hospitality because of the pandemic. And we don't need to talk about the pandemic, per se. But I'm kind of curious, from your perspective, where are you seeing the opportunities for the for your industry? You know, these things that people aren't realizing they should be doing?
Andy Shallal 23:21
Well, again, I think I think the technology is going to play a very major role in the growth of the industry. You know, the also professionalizing the industry, I think it's really important, I've been at the forefront of that conversation to increase wages and eliminated wages, which are sub level of wages, specifically for the restaurant industry, per se, and the hospitality industry waiting to pay somebody let them in a normal minimum wage, and haven't been made up by the tips they received from customers. So that, that although that has worked at some level, it also has, I think, made the industry less desirable. For some people, for some people, yet it made it a bit more desirable, a bartender was going to make you know, three or $400 a night is going to be very happy with that kind of situation. But the single mother waitress who's working at IOP and wants to be able to, you know, provide her kid a roof and, and be able to provide a meal for that child will find it very difficult. You know, given the bit of grades, that's, that's prevailing wage. So I think, you know, working to professionalize the industry meaning making it more desirable for high level people to want to join it as opposed to, I think many people for years, who joined the hospitality industry, people that just fell into it. You know, it wasn't a career choice. It was just a temporary thing that they want to do. They end up getting stuck in it, I want people to make sure that their choice to come into the restaurant industry and the hospitality industry, I want people to see it much like, you know, wanting to be an engineer or wanting to be a dentist or wanting to be a doctor or anything else that aren't teacher, you know, this is a great industry that has a lot of potential. And people can start out with almost nothing to be able to grow into, you know, six figure salaries in a fairly short time. And without a ton of education. Not everybody needs to go to college, because some people prefer to just do other things, which is perfectly fine. And I think that's probably the industry has been the recipient of many of those very talented people, who is, you know, whatever reason not to go the route of the usual route of getting to where they need to be, we have people, for instance, that start out with a servers, you know, and making a decent wage and becoming managers in a very short period of time, making starting salaries $65,000 a year, and upwards from there. And we have people that have been with us for over a decade, some for a couple of decades that have been working with us here, who have found themselves going from dishwasher to operations directors, you know, that's, that's a great, it's a great career path. And I think there's so many opportunities. And also, you know, the other thing, if I may add, is this is also had many different passes, the restaurant industry touches everything. So people want to go to accounting, people want to go into HR, people wanting to go into sourcing, farming, sustainability, all these things fall under the hospitality industry. So there are people that start out, let's say, it's waiters, because they fell into it, and they find it an exciting business, but maybe they don't want to wait tables that they're late, and they want to go into distribution of food or sourcing for how to create a, an environment that's more sustainable, you know, ecologically wise, you know, so all kinds of different iterations of where people want to be, are also available here in Nebraska.
Roger Hurni 27:19
Very true, very true, including marketing, by the way.
Andy Shallal 27:22
Of course, marketing is huge for the restaurant business. Absolutely.
Roger Hurni 27:25
I'm never going to live out my background.
Andy Shallal 27:28
You mean events, events, and catering? That's a whole different world.
Roger Hurni 27:32
It is true. There's a lot of good lessons to be learned by the conversation. We've had advice that you've given. So it leads me to my my last question. And this can be personal or professional. But I'm curious as to what's the worst advice you've ever gotten? Can you say no to?
Andy Shallal 27:55
That? That's a good question. The worst advice I've ever gotten is I mean, people always cautioning you against doing something. I mean, that happens all the time. And I think sometimes you got to trust your gut and be able to make decisions that may not be very popular. Yeah. Sorry about that. But, but But yeah, I think the worst advice, I have to think about that one, because
Roger Hurni 28:34
you gave an answer. I mean, it's, you know, people telling you to do things and you've got to sounds like you've got to go with your gut a little bit.
Andy Shallal 28:42
And I think I think people are always telling you what you can do. You know, people are very skeptical when I when I was getting ready to open Busboys and Poets, my first location, there were many people that were naysayers and said, you know, the location wasn't great at that time. It was kind of off the beaten path a little bit. It was a little bit of a sketchy neighborhood. You know, and, you know, sort of taking that risk and taking that chance was was a big deal. So, yeah, I, I've gotten better. But advice, but I haven't listened to advice, very much active. And I think that's maybe my strengths and my weaknesses. Sometimes, sometimes it's good to listen bias, but sometimes every person is unique and every experience is unique. And for somebody to say, I think you shouldn't do this, because it didn't work for them. You know, doesn't mean it doesn't work for you. So I always find advice to be to be kind of an odd thing to do. What somebody asked me for advice? Yeah, I tried to say like, okay, it's like, for example, if somebody comes into my restaurant says, What do you recommend? I could say, I like the steak. Well, that person could be a vegan. Right? So what have I advised them? Nothing I've made are actually grossed out. So they walk away feeling, you know, unhappy. So it's the same way. You know, like, I get people that come in and say, I want to open a restaurant, what advice do you give me? And I said, Well, I don't know where you're starting. I don't know what your passion is. I don't know what your commitment is. You know, so my answer is, are you willing to punch toilets at two o'clock in the morning? Yeah. And if they say, Yes, this person has potential, and they say, Oh, no way in hell, I'm gonna do that. Yeah.
Roger Hurni 30:44
Well, you remember my point, I asked the question, because I've always found that inside of bad advice is good advice. And so what we'll do is ask this question at the end of every interview. Absolutely. Well, you had been a very gracious guest with your time and very, very thoughtful with your answers. And I really enjoyed the conversation. I thank you so much. You're very welcome. I had been speaking with Andy Shallal, who is the founder and CEO of Busboys and Poets, Andy, where can people learn more about you?
Andy Shallal 31:21
They can actually go to our website, www.busboysandpoets.com. You spell out the end A N D and poets.com. I am on Instagram. I'm on Twitter at Andy Shallal AMD watchalong. Sh Al Al. Yeah. So you can reach us, you can go to our website has a listing of all the events that we do, plus ways to reach us directly. Absolutely. Wonderful.
Roger Hurni 31:50
All right. Well, I highly recommend it. I'm looking forward to traveling to the Washington DC area and and go to one of your locations. Sounds like it's right up my alley. Thank you. You're very welcome, everyone. I am Roger Hurni, the host of From Persona to Personal, and we'll catch you next time.
Outro 32:09
Thanks for listening to From Persona to Personal, the podcast that takes a closer look into how organizations personalize their marketing. We'll see you again next time and be sure to click Subscribe to get future episodes.
