A Conversation With the Keeper of Crave With Jamie Richardson, Vice President of Marketing and Public Relations at White Castle
Jamie Richardson is the Vice President of Marketing and Public Relations at White Castle, and he’s been with the company for over two decades. Jamie’s craving for White Castle was nurtured while he worked on the J. Walter Thompson advertising agency team, where he also had assignments on a range of accounts like Domino’s Pizza and Carhartt Outdoor Apparel. In recent years, Jamie has led White Castle’s involvement in entertainment projects like Harold and Kumar Go to White Castle, Undercover Boss, Impractical Jokers, and he’s made over 50 national television appearances on behalf of White Castle. Jamie is frequently quoted in publications, including the Wall Street Journal, the New York Times, the Washington Post, and Forbes.
In 2020, Jamie was appointed by Ohio Governor Mike DeWine to serve on the state’s Restaurant Advisory Group Board for restaurant recovery during the COVID pandemic. He has testified before the United States Congress to share perspectives on how proposed policies impact family businesses and restaurants.
Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn:
Jamie Richardson talks about how White Castle has changed over the past century
How White Castle navigated its way through the pandemic
The impact of White Castle’s product expansion into grocery stores
The most significant changes in customer behavior during the pandemic
How the White Castle app has impacted the brand
Why White Castle can plan for years into the future
What’s on the horizon for White Castle
The worst advice Jamie has ever received
What you’ll learn in this episode:
How do you start a relationship with your customers? Can it be done with an app? Is your contribution to the conversation worth the customer’s time?
You’ve probably had a White Castle experience and may have seen some of its grocery store offerings. According to Jamie Richardson of White Castle, the brand’s popular products have become even more popular with the emergence of their app. Jamie says the app allows White Castle to have a conversation with its customer base, which they call “Craver Nation.” The app has really taken off over the past year and a half since many people have started using it.
On this episode of From Persona to Personal, Roger Hurni welcomes Jamie Richardson, Vice President of Marketing and Public Relations at White Castle, for a conversation about the evolving relationship the 100-year-old brand maintains with its customers. They discuss the value of the app and how it allows White Castle to interact with its customers to cement their relationship with the brand.
Resources mentioned in this episode:
This episode’s sponsor:
Today’s episode is brought to you by Off Madison Ave. At Off Madison Ave, we create meaningful moments of brand trust and influence how people interact and engage with brands.
There is a science behind tapping into your audiences’ desires and motivation. After all, if you’re not changing your audiences’ behaviors, you can’t truly unlock all of your brand’s potential.
The proven models and methods of Behavior Design is the strategic foundation for your brands’ success.
Episode Transcript
Intro 0:02
This is From Persona to Personal podcast. Today's episode is brought to you by Off Madison Ave. Off Madison Ave creates meaningful moments of brand trust and influences how people interact and engage with brands. The science behind their approach taps into your audience's motivations and desires. After all, if you're not changing your audience's behaviors, you can't truly unlock all of your brand's potential. Now, let's get started with the show.
Roger Hurni 0:33
Hello, everyone, I am Roger Harney, the host From Persona to Personal I get to speak with top leaders in food and beverage. Before I get to today's guest. Today's episode is brought to you by Off Madison Ave. and Off Madison Ave. We use behavioral science to create meaningful moments of brand trust, which influences how people interact and engage with companies. Our behavioral approach taps into your audience's motivations and prompts them to shift behavior. After all, if you're not changing your audience's behaviors, you can't truly unlock all of your brand's potential. These proven behavioral models and methods are the strategic foundation for your brand's success. Now today I have with me, Jamie Richardson, who might just have the coolest title I've ever come across, which is The Keeper of Crave at White Castle burger. But in reality, he actually serves as the vice president of marketing. And Jamie has the distinction of being recently voted the person most likely to be seen scoping out sliders at his grocery store or freezer aisle or drive thru somewhere nearby. Kind of a title I envy. Jamie, welcome to the show.
Jamie Richardson 1:43
Great to be with you. Thank you.
Roger Hurni 1:45
All right. Well, in full disclosure of the audience listening today, I have to tell you that I grew up on White Castle and I even as a vegetarian, I still love them today. And Jamie was kind enough in our pre-show to tell me about the The Impossible Slider that they have. So as soon as this interview wraps up, I'm going to lunch. We'll figure that out. But we'll start with questions. So you're working for on your one year old startup? No, I mean, I'm getting over the last century, though mean that not a lot of companies make it that long, Jamie, over the last century, what's changed? And what's stayed the same with White Castle?
Jamie Richardson 2:29
You know, that's a great question. I think part of what's remained a constant for us is a focus on the future. So we're a family owned business. And we have been since day one. And that's not that common these days, especially not into the fourth generation of leadership. So I think for us, it's always been, as we express it and our vision, feeding The Souls of Crave for generations everywhere. And back in 1921, we express that a little bit differently, but that's still who we are today. And we recognize we don't want to be necessarily the biggest, we just absolutely want to be the best. And so we're able to bring that vision to life. Day in and day out. Of course, the world moves at a different pace than it did 101 years ago. But that's always been the case. So for us, the more things change, the more we create the same and that's that's one of a kind, steam grilled taste of White Castle, baby.
Roger Hurni 3:18
I didn't know it, the smelling White Castle like walking into one it brings a very distinctive memories of like my father would take me as a kid and the whole deal that nostalgia I'm sure plays a big part of the White Castle experience. And then you find a way to be very contemporary with things like you know, Harold and Kumar Go to White Castle. Very fortunate brand. Brand extends your brand new branded entertainment. Now, I think it was, I want to say 350 stores-ish, right?
Jamie Richardson 3:50
That's right. Yeah. 350 castles in 14 states.
Roger Hurni 3:53
Great. So what is what is what is growth look like? Now? What are what is expansion look like? What does the future look like?
Jamie Richardson 4:01
Well I think for us, what's really interesting is we're in 14 states with the restaurants we're in all 50 states with our consumer packaged goods business, selling frozen sliders in your local grocery freezer aisle. So that part of our business in his 35th year by the way, is growing like by leaps and bounds and is super, super cool and fun. And allows us to continue to do great things coast to coast. So we did just recently open the world's largest White Castle about 15 months ago in Orlando, Florida, 4,567 square feet. And the size of the expectant line was in proportion the size of the restaurant. The line to get into that castle is four miles long, even to the point where Jimmy Fallon made fun of us on The Tonight Show. He made a great joke about, Look at this drone, this drone footage and you know, you know that one guy has been waiting in line six hours gets up to the drive thru speaker and says, I can't remember what I wanted to get. But yeah, it's been awesome. So we sense and see a lot of vitality for the brand and everything we're doing. It's been really cool and fun. For us the growth has been in the freezer aisle. I mean, we've just doubled the size of one of our frozen food plants from 75,000 square feet to 150,000 square feet, to keep up with demand. So we feel like the world continues to discover great taste and process the elegance of 100% beef steamed grilled on a bed of onions and served on a bakery fresh bun. So that aroma, that sensory experience, you mentioned earlier, something that rings true for a lot of people.
Roger Hurni 5:30
So that product expansion in getting into the frozen food section, was that a big component to helping the organization navigate the pandemic?
Jamie Richardson 5:42
Yeah, absolutely. And as I mentioned, that's something that we did long ago. And in 1986, our CEO at the time, third generation leader Bill Ingram visited every single restaurant every year, and on a trip to New York, he was in a dining room, and he saw someone leaving with like, literally like sacks and sacks of sliders. He said, Wow, are you having a party? He said no, I put these in my freezer. Nice. What do you do that for? Oh, we got this new appliance, we heat them up and it's called a microwave oven. And so this idea that people were enjoying our food that way, why not make it easier and have them available at the grocery store? We were going to license it. We literally approached three, I won't say their names, globally renowned food manufacturers. And they all laughed and said, You'll never sell fast food in the grocery store. That will never work. Thank goodness Bill didn’t listen to them so we built a plant on our own and it's been off to the races ever since.
Roger Hurni 6:40
Did anything happen during the pandemic with the restaurants did that you see sales decline there or did that stay pretty steady? I mean, it's just an affordable luxury indulgence. Actually, for like an affordable indulgence, I would say White Castle.
Jamie Richardson 6:56
But first of all I for us, and we mean this quite sincerely, we have yet to refer to the pandemic and past tense, we're certainly much further along than we've ever been right since this thing hit in March of 2020. But, you know, we still have a wary eye out. And it did impact the business very negatively and very dramatically, very quickly. Of course, with lockdown, you know, people aren't allowed to come out, we were fortunate in that we do have drive thru. So for the restaurants, were able to pivot to that pretty assertively and aggressively. And we found that the biggest and most important thing was focusing in on our team members and providing them all the support they needed to do. I'll tell a really quick story about leadership. Our fourth generation leader Lisa Ingram pulled everybody together in the home office and said at the start of the pandemic, and she said, we've got a big goal. But I think if we, if we work together, we can do it. We want to get through this and not lay off a single person. And so everybody in the home office, all 200 people voluntarily took pay cuts that were indefinite, the bigger your job, the bigger your pay cut, that and other measures we took and put in place helped us control cost to balance it out. So we didn't have to close restaurants, we didn't have to lay people off. And thankfully, at a certain point in the summer 2020, things started to come back, primarily because we do have the drive throughs. To your point, the frozen food side of the business, the grocery store business went crazy. Because people who'd never discovered White Castle that way, were stocking up the freezers and sticking around home. So we had a lot of people try White Castle for the first time. Thankfully for us, they liked it. And so sales have been going even stronger ever since. So it was a tough run, it was tough on our people, it's still tough on our people. But we're getting through it one day at a time.
Roger Hurni 8:43
Yeah, I explained to listeners and people go through those kinds of stories on this podcast, how that without you realizing it perhaps is a is a shift in behavior modification, when someone's motivations, either in the pandemic from an extrinsic force, are forced to shift their behaviors. If you can't pivot to make it easier for them to obtain your product, you're going to fail pretty quickly. And that pivot of having that readily available in the freezer case allows them to perform the behavior they're familiar with, and keep that habit going with even though the sales and stores might have obviously gone down. And if you look at any kind of product expansion when you can do it from that behavioral lens. Every CEO, every vice president of marketing that I've ever spoken to, sort of recognizes that instinctively. And I think that's what really helps businesses get through tough situations.
Jamie Richardson 9:42
We said early on, when the pandemic hit, that there's no playbook for this. This isn't something that many of us have lived through in recent memory or ever and so we have to be able to ask good questions, listen intently to the answers we get, and then use that as our foundation for action, which we really we committed ourselves to we definitely made mistakes. But we jumped in and did the best we could, we were able to raise money partnering with the National Restaurant Association for our casual and fine dining friends who were closed completely during lockdown. So we did a couple of different fundraisers, one, Richard Dreyfus read The Night Before Cravenness, which is a little bit of a twist on a classic. But, you know, and through that we raised $25,000, for restaurant workers everywhere to benefit from so I think, for us is about leaning in having a heart for hospitality and doing the right thing for the right reasons.
Roger Hurni 10:33
Yeah, makes makes perfect sense. I wouldn't say that we're out of the pandemic. I think it's one of those things like the flu that we'll always have around in some way, shape or form. I do think we're fairly pretty much on the other side of it. So what challenges are you facing now?
Jamie Richardson 10:49
The challenges are real. And the challenges are probably similar to what many of us have seen in the headlines, scarcity of supply, price volatility, labor shortage. So it's not an ideal environment, it's a tough environment. That's where we feel being family owned, helps us hopefully, have a distinctive point of difference both as a place to visit as a consumer and as a place to work as a team member. So you know, we have 10,000 team members who work at White Castle, who call our castle their home. And of that 10,000, more than one and four have been with White Castle 10 years or more, which is really amazing to me, and of our restaurant operations leaders 450 people are in those roles. 442 started behind the counter at White Castle in an hourly roll and rose up through the ranks. So we've got something good going. We're two for two, we've applied twice and been certified as a great place to work two years in a row. So that's really, really humbling and challenging in a good way. Because it means that's fun to get the banner and and get the celebratory notes that go with it. That means you got to keep it going. You got to dig a little deeper and think a little bit harder about what's next. And how do we meet people where they are not last week, or 10 years ago, but tomorrow and 10 years from now. So that's where our focus has been.
Roger Hurni 12:08
Are you I'm seeing a lot of restaurants look at or discuss shifting consumer behavior dining, their behaviors are shifting, like what time of day they're using it or how they're using it or who they're enjoying the restaurant with. Are you seeing anything with White Castle in terms of a slightly different or a trend in consumer behavior now versus maybe a few years ago?
Jamie Richardson 12:33
Yeah, I think so. I think the confluence of pandemic induced changes in behavior with technology and you know, building bridges to how to get your food have definitely, those elements have had a big impact, for instance, delivery. You know, we partner with all the big delivery partners from UberEATS, DoorDash, and Grubhub. And, you know, they're great partners. That's an avenue that more and more people are trying for the first time and finding that they enjoy the convenience of having the food delivered to them. I mean, pizza, pizzas had this down for years. The delivery partners makes it more viable for a lot of other restaurants to play on that side of it to drive throughs continue to be important to people and at the same time, we're investing in re-imaging our dining room, because we know there's a an ache and a hunger for spending some time together. And that people do want to come and hang out. And I think the biggest change for us that we've seen in the past 18 months is early pandemic. I mean late night just vanished because nothing was open. So late night for us has always been part of our courts. Were there morning, noon or night, the rest of the day open 24 hours. So when late night went away, we had to adjust to that. We've seen late night come back. I mean, the summer of 22 was I hear I've heard of revenge travel. I think we had some revenge late nighters out there to you know, enjoying themselves and spending time with friends and and hitting the castle having their Uber driver take them through the drive thru on the way home or whatever. But so that was heartening to see that part of our business come back strong. Breakfast day part is similarly been impacted by changes in commutes, and people working from home. And you know, that day part is really driven by habit and loyalty. So we're constantly recalibrating, but I feel like we got the right people in the right places to help us continue to do a great job.
Roger Hurni 14:33
That's wonderful. You know, one of the one of the consumer behaviors that has really, really risen has been the relationship that customers have with brands through the brand's app from ordering to paying to if it's done right, you know, a marketing automation where you can really personalize messaging and offers through that vehicle. It's a channel that a brand like White Castle can own. And I know that you have an app as well. What are you doing in terms of, of that app? And how effective is that been to personalize those, those experiences when they're not actually in store?
Jamie Richardson 15:21
The app has been amazing. And so for us, it's really about, it's not us talking at someone, it's having a conversation. So we're fortunate in that we call it that Craver Nation, it's gone nuts, the past year and a half. I mean, so many people have signed up, that's really off to the races. And again, I think, as the familiarity of those systems become something that people everywhere are used to using and have on their phones, it's really benefited us, it makes it easier for team members, because that orders placed ahead of time, they know what they need to make when it's really great for the bigger orders. Because as you might imagine, when you live in the Land of Crave, like we do, people aren't coming in for one or two sandwiches, sometimes you're getting that Crave Case for 30, or that Crave Crate with 100. So having a little advance notice on that makes it even easier to have them served up hot and tasty up the grill. So now the app has been amazing. It helps us support our teams, it helps us be there for our customers when they need us the most and helps us talk to them more frequently.
Roger Hurni 16:19
Are you finding more value? It mean, I haven't now. And this could be like a little glaze in the future, the crystal ball that you have in front of you, theoretically, or is there more value in having that direct to consumer communication channel over other marketing channels? Do you see that growing?
Jamie Richardson 16:40
I do see it growing. I think the danger that always is there for anyone who's trying to reach out to prospective friends, is that just because you can do something doesn't mean you should do something. That it has to be something where like any great friendship relationship, it's a two way street, where it's a conversation, where it's informative and good. And you know, we have a maximum we live by here. When it comes to any kind of consumer facing communication. Every headline should be a game, the reader wins, there needs to be emotional reward in there. If we're asking people to spend time with us, even if it's just opening an email and reading it, it better be good. Let's make it worth our time. And if if it's not, that's on us. So you know, I think too many feel like, Oh, we got this technology. And we can do this and this and this and this. And the only thing they forget to do is consider that there's someone who's receiving that, who still has the ability to lean in or runaway. And we want them all leaning in.
Roger Hurni 17:40
Yeah, that's, that's wicked smart. And as a creative person. At many large agencies, people, people think that one size fits all. And they don't take into consideration how the consumer is really the brand manager, and you need to meet them in the channel on their terms. And to be able to do that in a way that gives them insight into your brand's personality and does, and respects their time. Not a lot of brands do that. And so kudos to you for doing that. That's a good lesson for other people listening to the podcast is to lean in that similar manner.
Jamie Richardson 18:25
Can we do our best? You know, I've been again, we saw a simple and elegant slider. So you know, it's it isn't as complex some business models, but we think there's merit to that the fact we've been able to stay family owned over 100 years, allows us to take a longer view. So no offense to any of our friends, colleagues, competitors who are publicly traded or anything else. Those are all great business models. We like ours just fine. Because we can make decisions that, you know, we can look to say is this a good idea, not just three months from now, three years from now, five years from now. And we feel it's helped to steer clear course to where we want to be.
Roger Hurni 19:00
That's great, great brand advice. You don't have to be like everybody else. You just have to be yourself.
Jamie Richardson 19:05
That's right. Be authentic.
Roger Hurni 19:07
Yeah, you have to be very authentic. Alright, well, let's just pretend it's you and me. And no one's listening. What's on the horizon? any big announcements you can share?
Jamie Richardson 19:16
Well, you know, we're continuing to grow. So we're going to be opening a new castle in Arizona and Tempe Arizona. And so we're pretty excited about that. We just have inducted into our Cravers Hall of Fame. The famous hip hop artists, innovator, legend, fat jokes. So that's been a lot of fun. So that Cravers Hall of Fame continues to feed the souls of crave generations everywhere. And I think for us, the business will continue to grow and prosper because we are focused on how do we balance out this ability to feed the nation literally, through our retail brand or CPG presence and the restaurants were they're able to have such a big impact and I make a positive difference in the lives of others. So we're just having fun, you know, we turned 100 not too long ago. So this is our 100 and first year, so this kind of like big back to basics, it's white castle 101 around here, you know, we're, we're not taking anything for granted, we live in a really competitive world and a tough category. But for us, it's more about connecting and making a difference and seeing where that leads.
Roger Hurni 20:21
That's great. And listeners can easily get a lot of great advice from how you approach your customers and business as a whole. I'm going to turn that on its head for my last question. Because often, I think people learn from mistakes or what not to do. So my question for you, the last one is, what's the worst advice you've ever gotten?
Jamie Richardson 20:47
That's a good one. The worst advice I've ever gotten? Well, you know, I'm a positive person. So let me just think through that for a second. Like, maybe it was like, early on in advertising, saying it's good to stay up and keep up with the client. And later I found out, as my evening wore on, that everyone around me was drinking water, and I wasn't. So that did not serve me. Well. That's a confessional that I didn't intend to share. But you know, you have that way, Roger, of pulling this out of people. So, yeah.
Roger Hurni 21:22
Well, everybody, everybody asked her what's the best advice. And in full disclosure, I did that on every single show, I think, until the last interview that I did with a guest. And we started chitting, chit chatting back and forth with like, the worst advice, and I'm thinking like, wow, that's a great way to end every show, because it's so out of left field. And people don't expect that, right. Yeah, I worked for an agency one time where the person I thought owned it was was very smart. But I learned and I hated the job. And it's not even on my LinkedIn profile. So do look it up. It's not even on there. But I learned so much of what not to do, because her advice was terrible. And I learned how not to treat people, how not to treat clients. How do I put my people first, like I learned so much what not to do, because you always gave the worst advice, and I learned so much from it. And that's a part of asking that question. You've been very grateful.
Jamie Richardson 22:18
It's a great question, especially through that lens that, then and that's great advice for all of us that we're always learning and sometimes it is, what not to do versus what path to follow.
Roger Hurni 22:27
Yeah. Steve Jobs, my friend worked at Apple and done a lot of work for him directly. He said, I think his quote was, I'm gonna butcher this and someone's gonna call me on it to the table. Deciding what not to do is harder than deciding what to do. And I think that's really good advice.
Jamie Richardson 22:47
No, definitely. And especially for those of us who live and work in the creative space. You know, there's so many endless possibilities, but at some point, you have to pick a path and, and go deep and make it take a sad song and make it better.
Roger Hurni 23:02
Very true. Very true. Well, thank you. I had been speaking with Jamie Richardson, the Vice President of Marketing, aka The Keeper of Crave at White Castle. Jamie tell the audience where they can learn more about you and White Castle.
Jamie Richardson 23:16
Well definitely look at whitecastle.com There's always fun stuff going on out there and fell learn about me, you could look me up on LinkedIn or, hey, just drop me a note, JamieRichardson@whitecastle.com. It's as easy as that. And we respond to any requests for anything to make your day more crave-a-licious, my friends.
Roger Hurni 23:33
I love it. I love it. I'm Roger Hurni, the host of From Persona to Personal and we'll see you next time.
Jamie Richardson 23:38
Crave on!
Outro 23:41
Thanks for listening to From Persona to Personal, the podcast that takes a closer look into how organizations personalize their marketing. We'll see you again next time and be sure to click Subscribe to get future episodes.
